Intro: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Stacey Salyer Show, the podcast for property management leaders ready to think bigger about growth. I'm Stacey Salyer and the only acquisition strategist in this industry who sat on all sides of the m and a table. I've been the buyer acquiring a 370 door competitor during COVID using seller financing.
I've been the seller building and exiting a seven figure business. And I've been the corporate evaluator as director of acquisitions, assessing over hundreds of companies nationally. That means I know exactly what you're thinking, what you're missing, and what actually works when it comes to buying and integrating in this space.
On this show, we dig into acquisitions as a real business tool. Not luck, not someday. You'll learn positioning, strategy, numbers, and integration from someone who's actually done it all. Let's go.
Stacey Salyer: Welcome back my friends to the [00:01:00] Stacey Salyer Show where we talk about buying and selling property management companies and everything in between. Today I have a guest on and we are going to talk about recruiting and what that looks like. so I would love to welcome, Dylan Scroggins to my show.
Dylan Scroggins: Stacy, thanks for having me.
Stacey Salyer: Yeah, my pleasure. So I know I just kind of threw it out there when I talk about recruiting and that's like a really large umbrella of, of what, I guess we're gonna talk about, but kind of dial it down as far as why we would talk about recruiting when we talk about buying and selling property management companies and really kind of what got you into that and, you know, how you help people in the property management space because as far as I know, you're the only one that's really dedicated to recruiting those higher level, employees.
So why don't you give us a little rundown on your background and how you got here?
Dylan Scroggins: Yeah, yeah. Well, once again, thanks for having me. It's been great getting to know you the last couple years. so Kalmar Group, we specialize in [00:02:00] placing leaders for any small business, right? So a lot of our clients are, founder owner led, anything from, you know, two million to 20 million in revenue.
they're typically big enough to, have good opportunities, but still small enough where they wouldn't need an internal recruiting team. you know, I, I say that like zoomed out where I never really consider myself specifically or just simply a property management recruiter, even though it's probably 60 to 70% of my business.
maybe I should, but I feel like I learn a lot of things from other industries as well that helps me implement in property management. But, as you mentioned, like, yeah, I think I'm the only one that really focused on that director VP type level. Uh, we do BDMs as well. It's funny because a lot of times in the property management space, I have to explain more about what I'm not than what I am.
Um, I'm not staffing, I'm not global talent. There's some other folks that do a great job with that. I'm also not like a trainer or consultant. we're very much like that, that headhunter that goes out and finds talent. but it's [00:03:00] definitely a new, you know, concept in this space and, you know, I can dive a little bit about, you know, how, I guess I chose property management, maybe property management chose me, which is probably a similar, uh, story of a lot of your guests and people in this world.
But yeah, it's been an awesome space. It's been really good to me and it's been a lot of fun.
Stacey Salyer: Yeah, no, I love that. so a few things on that. One, I feel like, property management's like joining a gang. Once you get jumped in, you're just never, you're never really out. So sorry,
Dylan Scroggins: Yeah, I got my bandana in my back pocket.
Stacey Salyer: Yeah,
I know.
Dylan Scroggins: Um, yeah, no, I mean, it's, it's a funny story. Like I joined an agency, uh, a recruitment firm in my late 20s, and it was founder's basement, learned a ton, spent about three years there. And one of my clients there was gkhouses.com. I'll get back to them in a second.
I stepped out of recruiting for about seven or eight years. I was actually in software sales, that whole world of like VC, PE backed software companies. Had a great run, was really spoiled, worked for two great companies locally here in Birmingham. [00:04:00] Um, but I really wanted to do something of my own. And, I, I really love recruiting and I wanted to spin up kind of a, a solo shop like I did.
Well, in that timeframe that I was in software, that gkhouses.com became what we now know as Evernest. Uh, I think there were about 800 to 1,000 doors when I recruited for them. And then, , they were, you know, 20,000 doors, you know, in that timeframe that I left recruiting. And, you know, they're local here, their office is, you know, about four blocks from mine.
Two of the people that I placed there were still there 10 years later. , So it was a simple ask to them of, "Hey, can I put your logo on my website?" They said, "Sure." , And I told those, you know, two individuals that were still there. I was like, "Hey, I'm about to ride your coattails, right? , Even though it was all you, right, I could never have predicted the impact you'd have there."
, It was still a nice little, uh, I guess win to hang my hat on. And, you know, it is in business. Like the snowball starts to build. I did some recruiting for, you know, Peter Lohman, you know, mutual friend as well. And, it just started to stack on wins. And soon enough, I was just doing a lot of property management and learning a lot about door [00:05:00] count, maintenance, , turns, and kind of speaking the language more and more.
And like you've mentioned, , once you get in the network or the family, the ecosystem, whatever you wanna call it, it's a very, , unassuming space. , There's a lot of very, very talented high level operators and owners in this space. , I think if you told someone that you worked in property management, they think you're like fixing toilets or taking out the trash.
, The reality is there's a ton of AI as we know, a ton of global talent, a ton of people making a, a, ton of money and like some pretty strong incomes. And it's just a really cool world. And it's been really good to me. I've tried to be good to it. , But yeah, I kind of got here by accident through some chance relationships 10 years ago that got resurrected and, , now I'm hopefully here to stay.
Stacey Salyer: Yeah. Okay, cool. So you, so you're the founder owner of your company, Kalamar Group, right?
Dylan Scroggins: Yeah.
Stacey Salyer: Okay. And do you have a team or is it just you? Are you just out
Dylan Scroggins: Yeah. So I got a executive assistant, yeah, my admin. Um, she does a lot of work, uh, behind the scenes. I've got some like [00:06:00] 1099 sourcers that help at times, but at least right now, we try to be like very, very boutique where I'm leading the searches. I'm running a lot of the campaigns and doing a lot of the gritty work.
, Maybe in a few years that might be different, but as of right now, I think my clients like that, , since I'm on the front lines and, , you know, intrinsically motivated, got a young family, wanna build this business, but for right now, I'm doing a lot of the, a lot of the recruiting work, which is fine with me because I love it, but I think it's also helpful where I'm seeing on the front lines what the market's doing.
Stacey Salyer: Right. Okay. So you've been recruiting for property management companies for about 10 years, is that correct? Like
Dylan Scroggins: Yeah, 10 years. And when I was in software, we sold a lot to property management companies. , But really this last almost three years has been much more heavily focused on it.
Stacey Salyer: Okay. Okay. So kind of looking back, I mean, , have you seen a huge change? I mean, I, I guess, you know, I opened my original company 10 years ago, 2016. I mean, I definitely saw a huge change in the tech, but have you seen a change in the talent [00:07:00] and like expectations?
Dylan Scroggins: Yeah, I think, you know, even the last two years, this kind of shift from not just property management, but asset management, that's been really good. , And I think, you know, just with the economy and the, the interest rates and everything where like rentals are becoming more, , you know, common and I'm the last person to speak about like major trends in property management as a whole, right?
I leave that to other experts, but I do think there's a lot of storylines that make it, , not easy, but a lot more attractive to talent, maybe outside property management to enter property management. , I think, you know, Matthew Whitaker says this often, like nobody's in kindergarten wanting to be in property management, right?
But when you start talking about the AI, the global talent, the opportunities, the acquisitions, M&A, et cetera, people are like, "Whoa, I had no clue that was happening in that Narnia world that you, you're talking about." So when you kind of like bring them in the wardrobe, maybe I'm Mr. Tumnus here, like bringing them in, and once they see it, [00:08:00] that's when it gets really attractive.
And, you know, I get excited about this stuff and for me, bringing in people outside of property management is really gratifying, especially that like BDM director, senior director role, , because they just don't know about the opportunity there. And I think out of the 30 to 35 placements I've done in property management, 85 to 90% actually did not have a formal single family property management background.
Stacey Salyer: Okay. Yeah, that's huge. Well, I think most of us that have gotten into it, either it's, well, and I, I found this even when I was acquiring on a national level. There's usually three ways you get in. One, you're an investor, you're self-managing and you just start managing for other people. Two, you're recruited.
That was me. I was recruited. I was
Dylan Scroggins: Love that.
Stacey Salyer: Yeah. Oh, yeah, The third way, duh.. you're a realtor and you're working with investors selling to them and you just start, you're like, "Oh, I can start managing for those people." So those are usually kind of the top three ways. Very rarely. I think I can cou- count on one hand [00:09:00] over 22 years of meeting somebody that said they actually intended to be a property manager.
It's so rare. So rare. Yeah.
Dylan Scroggins: trying to flip the interview, but do you mind sharing your recruitment story of how you got recruited to property management? 'Cause my, my heart is palpitating here to hear that you got recruited into this world.
Stacey Salyer: Yeah. So I was managing a large gap store in downtown Seattle, making a fabulous salary with all the benefits, you know, whole corporate nine yards, right? , And I got a phone call. , At the time I was married to the kid's dad and he was actually unemployed. And so the person on the other line who was kind of a distant family friend said, "Hey, I'm hiring a property manager."
And I said, "Oh, well, let me go grab, you know, my, my husband." He's like, "Oh, no, no. I don't, I don't wanna talk to your husband. I want you. I want you to come work for me. I want you to be my property manager." And I, I said, "Well, I have a job and I mean, I do great, you know, I make good salary and I enjoy what I [00:10:00] do."
And I said, "I also had, I had no idea what does a property manager do? I don't even know. Yeah, what does that mean?" He's like, "Oh, just come in and talk to me and, you know, I think you'll really like it. It's a way better schedule." Because I had just had my first kid actually and, you know, I have three as well and now.
And, , yeah, long story short, I took the meeting and I went in and it seemed very enticing to me. I could go from like crazy retail hours to kind of more normal, like Monday through Friday-ish hours, you know, daytime. It was much closer to home. I'd have more control over my schedule. I, got recruited in as a portfolio manager.
all I had to do was get my real estate license, which, you know, is pretty easy. The barrier to entry to that's pretty low. you know, I was able to get back up to my regular income, I think within about nine months because I quickly learned how to, you know, bring on clients because I, I was doing portfolio paid based on a percentage of what I collected on management fees and lease up fees and stuff.
Yeah.
Dylan Scroggins: I'm doing a [00:11:00] portfolio manager search right now for a group out of Portland and I had a phone call today with someone coming from higher ed and they're a fantastic candidate. , I don't know if they'll listen to this, , interview or if they'll get the job or not, it's very early, but a lot of what they're saying has threads of property management, even though they have not been in property management.
So once again, sharing the story about this company and the growth potential and the client relations, et cetera, and it's, it's investment management and investor relations. It's not property management. Once again, nothing wrong with property management, but that different story and that different tone, you know, that's when I'm talking to people about how to recruit for their business, not even using a recruiter, just recruiting themselves, like getting a really good story of the opportunity and not only where the company's headed or how the company was founded or all the revenue doors, whatever, like people care about that stuff, but not a lot.
They wanna know what's in it for them. They, what's in it for them, you know? It's like, and not just what you're gonna pay me. Like that is important though. And I do think [00:12:00] you've mentioned trends. I have seen more and more competitive compensations in property management. Maybe I'm just getting more comfortable with sharing my expertise after doing it for three years.
, But I do think more and more people are seeing, hey, if I wanna get the talent I want, it's kinda like, you know, hire nice or hire twice. , So that's a good trend. , But also, I, I just, I do feel there's some momentum in this space, , as people see that there's some great opportunities here.
Stacey Salyer: Yeah, for sure. I think property management, I look at it as more as like relationship management. , Certainly asset management, but really it's all about managing the relationship. I mean, you've got your client, you have your tent, you know, your resident, and then, you know, your vendors and everybody in between and then your team.
So yes, asset management's really important and knowing obviously rental rates and all that kind of good stuff, but i- if you can't manage relationships, you're really not gonna do a very good job, in my
Dylan Scroggins: Yeah. And I'll share, I wouldn't say it's a hot take, [00:13:00] maybe a mild take depending on who hears it, but the one group that we've seen that hasn't done as well with the transition of single family, and this is actually more based on like owner feedback to me rather than, you know, what I've seen, it's just folks coming from the multifamily, because in multifamily, you typically have one owner that you're talking to or an ownership group or private equity family office, whatever.
But making that transition to go from like one owner to 200 owners in your portfolio, it's tough and not saying it can't be done. I've had plenty of people that had multifamily experience do great in the single family world, but typically they had at least a hot minute in the single family. So they knew what it was like, then they moved to multifamily and then they wanted to get back to single family for whatever reason.
Stacey Salyer: Yeah. I would agree with that hot, mild take, whatever you wanna call it
because.
Dylan Scroggins: like, like any hot mile take, there's an asterisk, but.
Stacey Salyer: right, right. I think, I think the challenge I've seen with people coming from multifamily to single family is [00:14:00] that you are also managing so many different products and you have so many different areas. I mean, you know, even in my county, you know, we have five different main towns, but all those towns are very different, right?
, The people, the homes, the, even the year of built of the homes and you're what you're managing. And then you've got all those different personalities of the investors and then the residents and , that's very different than the multifamily of , "Hey, here's your 200 unit building. You have, you know, X amount of studios, one bedroom, two bedroom, three bedroom, this is it.
This is, you know, your turn time is down to a science." , It's very different compared to that single family management, which is why single family management is a little bit more complicated, in my opinion.
Dylan Scroggins: Yeah. I, I do not think that's a hot take. So yeah,
Stacey Salyer: That is not. No, you and I agree, for sure. So, tell me about, like, your, your recruiting.
I mean, obviously, you're, you're probably recruiting more than just property managers, you're probably recruiting those higher level, , positions [00:15:00] that I think some of the larger companies are starting to move toward. Again, you know, I've been in this for 22 plus years, so when I got into it, it was still very kind of basic business.
I feel like a lot more people are being more savvy with setting up their businesses, or maybe that's just the circle I'm running with. , People are looking for those, , ops managers, the directors, , all those kind of things. So are you recruiting more for that, and what does that look like?
Dylan Scroggins: Yeah, great question. So even some of the things you've said about director, ops, managers, one of the first things we do with our clients is talk about titles. And 80% of the time someone says, "Ah, I don't care about titles, you know, I'm the founder, CEO, owner, president, whatever you wanna call me." And I'm like, "No, no, no, no.
Titles matter." The fact that you're saying titles don't matter shows that you have a title that warrants such a dogmatic opinion about titles, right? Your title gives you that, that, that clout to, , say [00:16:00] titles don't matter, but titles matter a ton. And, you know, that's one of the first, , exercises. And sometimes it's a one minute convo, sometimes it's an hour convo.
I, I'm not kidding because the title matters so much. I was talking today with a group out of California about the title. And I, I didn't really like the title they were going with originally. , But also, , their hierarchy has its sort of semantics budget of what they're calling other people.
So, like, your title has to fit what the market says. It also has to fit what the role is, the comp, but also the existing positions and the titles. It also kind of has to fit, , the LinkedIn Indeed algorithm, right? So, like, it's actually a way bigger deal than people give it credit for. And, you know, like I said, I can give a TED Talk just on titles.
But the first thing we do, and to answer your original question about the work that we do, typically the titles are, from top down, like, a senior director of operations, director of operations. , Sometimes we'll do, like, an operations manager, but we really try to push that [00:17:00] director title, , because it just brings in a different level of candidacy.
, And then, of course, we also, you know, love doing, you know, BDMs, marketing managers, roles like that. Our comps are typically, , 90K minimum, you know, up to probably, like, a 150K base, depending on the region and kind of where they're at. , And for our EOS fans out there, I'm sure there's plenty of them, a lot of times, and this kind of segues into, you know, the conversation about the buy and selling side and how recruitment plays into that.
Man, we love finding integrators. And that's a really, really big market that we wanna keep on, , hammering down on, is finding those integrators. So yeah, like, the BDM and marketing managers are great. Like, with the BDM, we don't just post the job, like, we're gonna go out and really hunt to find that talent.
Typically, the best sales talent is not looking for a job. You gotta kinda, you know, go find it and kinda shake them a little bit. , And then not everybody needs, like, a marketing manager role, but for the ones that do, we do that. , But yeah, and for all those roles, I would say 90% of our roles are in-person.
, We have had some clients that request [00:18:00] remote, but mostly it's in-person, which I think separates us from some other kind of vendors or partners in this space. Like, we're just, we're not remote for a lot of these roles, not because we don't wanna be, but because it just makes sense to be in the office for a lot of these positions.
Stacey Salyer: Right. Okay. I am so glad you brought up titles because I I have this
Dylan Scroggins: let's just talk about titles the
Stacey Salyer: Let us. I know. Can we just talk about
Dylan Scroggins: I got a lot of hot takes on titles.
Stacey Salyer: Okay. I think it is so weird when people have weird titles. Okay. So now I was always taught that if you have the, , the word officer in your title, that you truly are an officer of the company and you hold liability and all that kind of good stuff.
So if you have some weird title, like, "I'm the chief fund officer." And I'm sorry if any of my listeners have that title and they now think I've offended them. But,
um, I mean, is that, is it. Uh, okay. And yeah, so maybe they won't be offended. They're just having a great time listening, drinking their Coke Zero, whatever.
So [00:19:00] what do you think? Is that. I mean, is that right? Am I wrong? Is that, um,
weird?
Dylan Scroggins: the worst things. No, I, I agree. I think, like, talent Sherpa or, like, you know, f - whatever you said chief fund officer, I think those things are very, like, early Googles 2006 - ish. They should never be done ever again. I
Stacey Salyer: Okay.
Dylan Scroggins: think the. And the other thing with titles, though, is you gotta leave some real estate, because if you say, "Hey, look, , and I, I've talked to people like this, you can't go backwards with titles.
Stacey Salyer: Right.
Dylan Scroggins: you can go backwards in comp before you can go backwards in title." And I mean that, because if you give someone a VP of ops title or VP of marketing or VP of whatever, you, you know, let's say it's a house and you use your lot, you don't have room to build on. Like, that's gonna be their title. When they get antsy or they go on Glassdoor and they say, "What should a VP of Ops make?"
, That, it's like, it, those, , little algorithms, whatever, don't factor in the size of the company, the responsibility, whatever. So, that's why it's actually, like, a two to five [00:20:00] year plan on titles, that's why it's so important, because you have got to leave real estate for that next step for them, and also leave real estate below them where you can fill the gaps, because if you get really title top heavy, once again, it sounds so silly, because, like, we're all adults here, and it's just a title, semantics, whatever, that means a lot when they go home to their wife or their boyfriend or, like, their parents, and it's like, "Hey, I am blank."
, It means a lot. And I think that intentionality, , it can either be flush and, like, work really, really well, or it can be a pending disaster.
Stacey Salyer: So, yeah,
Dylan Scroggins: That is not hyperbole, like, titles, like, it's like, in, in the W2 world, it means a lot.
Stacey Salyer: Right. And I think to maybe the business owner entrepreneur who maybe didn't grow up in a corporate world or, you know, they're just not that. I, because I'll, I'll also be honest. When I went to work for Pure, I remember talking to our, , VP of marketing and I was like, "Oh, whatever. , Put whatever title you want on my business [00:21:00] card."
And he was like, "No, your title matters. It's gonna matter when you, when you leave Pure." And I was like, "Oh, I guess so." I mean, to me, it just never did matter because I was always the owner broker, so I didn't really care. I mean, but at Pure, I wasn't the owner broker. I was a designated broker. , but it did matter that I was the director of acquisitions.
And that did hold a different clout than if I was just some assistant or something like that, right?
Dylan Scroggins: , Why do you think the bank makes everybody with a pulse and two years of tenure a VP, right? You know? I see these, , 26-year-olds here in Birmingham trying to get a meeting and saying they're the VP of the bank. I'm like, "You and 45 others, right?" But hey, it's cool to, cool to say it, but I know how they do that,, but I think the difference between a GM and recruiting for a GM and recruiting for a director of operations, same responsibility, same direct reports, [00:22:00] same, , future track record, you're gonna get better candidates, same comp, you're gonna get better, way better candidates, calling it a director of operations than you get it calling a general manager.
Stacey Salyer: That makes sense. That makes sense. So you brought up a really good point, especially for people who are thinking. And everybody should always be thinking about selling their company, , or setting their business up to sell. And that's one thing that we have not talked about in our industry, is titles. And so being able to map it out, and that may be something, , you know, whether you create some sort of short course or something like that, or even do a webinar on how do you create a good org chart for a property management company, and how do you assign the right titles for that, for growth?
That would be really cool to talk about.
Dylan Scroggins: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's gonna be a part of the due diligence, right? And, you know, what we talked about, you know, when we jumped on before we started recording, but on the buy side or the sell side, , you're doing a lot of intentionality around your books, your processes, whatever, [00:23:00] but you need to have even more intentionality around your people and the people on your team, right, but also the future potential people as well.
And I know we'll probably dive deeper into both these categories, but, like, if you're looking to buy, you know, that 300 door portfolio 30 minutes away that you feel like you can, like, rebrand and really stack some wins on, there, you're, you might lose some people with the new ownership. So you need to be thinking about who you're going to bring on if you lose somebody.
You also might level up that team and expect a higher standard performance under your business rather than the previous owner, so you might have to terminate people and kind of level up that talent. So if you buy a business, recruiting, and not just hiring, but recruiting needs to be at top of your mind.
And then if you're looking to sell your business, once again, this is probably obvious to some of your listeners, but one of the first questions you probably get is what happens when you leave, when your earnout's complete? , I don't know. Going back to the title, , my maintenance manager can run it.[00:24:00]
"Your maintenance manager? Like that doesn't really sound like a title if someone's gonna run the business. "And if that person, if they're not capable, you're n - gonna need to hire, like, a director of ops, senior director of ops type person. So that's some of the work that we've done, especially on the, the buy side for, like, a family office out of California.
They've bought two different $400 portfolios, and we found senior director of ops for each one, right? As they keep on growing, hopefully they keep calling us, and we keep finding those, like, owners within the business for each portfolio. We haven't done as much work. , We got some clients who are actively looking to buy businesses, so we haven't done as much work for, like, the clients themselves.
Once again, that family office being one of them, but I'm talking about for, like, a PM group buying another PM group. , And then in regards to preparation for selling, we have had, definitely had some of those conversations, , with folks about that. And the smart ones are thinking two and three years down the road, right?
Or even, like, 12 to 16 months down the road, because they wanna show whoever the buyer is that, hey, we got some leadership in place that's [00:25:00] gonna continue this legacy, and it's not gonna be a, ghost town once you buy it.
Stacey Salyer: Right. Yeah. No, you bring up really good points, for sure. , And I think that is something that people. I don't know. In due diligence, I get a lot of questions of like, "Oh, what are red flags? What should I look for?" And people are very fixated on the numbers and the, really just the numbers , and money.
But honestly, I think people is one of the biggest things. And that's something I personally spend a lot of time on when I'm doing, because I'm actively acquiring. And I spend probably more time, , on the people piece of it than I do anything else. Because long run, in my opinion, people can make or break your business.
Dylan Scroggins: Oh, 100%. All right, another question for you. If you're looking to buy, this is all, like, hypothetical, you're looking to buy, , or, or one of your listeners looking to buy, like, a, like, a good size PM group, let's say, like, a thousand doors, and they got four, once again, I'm using very easy math here, they got four portfolio managers, , you know, controlling the [00:26:00] relationships of, you know, 250 a piece of those,
Stacey Salyer: Mm-hmm.
Dylan Scroggins: , Would the buyer, and pardon my ignorance here, would the buyer have the liberty to meet with those portfolio managers to see the quality of talent that's dealing with the owners, or is that kinda off limits?
Stacey Salyer: It really just depends on the seller. It depends on the entire transaction and how that all works. , So, you know, it, can get a little dicey if you as a seller are trying to sell and all of a sudden you're introducing this potential buyer, , and things go south and they, they don't pull the trigger because now you've created a lot of probably, , you know, weird feelings in your team.
Yeah, angst. Thank you. That's the word. Can't always think of the words. ,
so angst on a daily basis being a business owner, so I'm very comfortable with that word.
I know. Anxiety. Yeah, that's another good one. I use the word anxiety.
Dylan Scroggins: Yeah,
Stacey Salyer: I know. Trauma? I don't know. So anyway, yeah.
Dylan Scroggins: keep going.
Stacey Salyer: We can just go on with all the words. But I [00:27:00] would think it really just depends. I mean, so there, you know, like I said, I'm actively acquiring.
I have been able to work with one potential seller where we've been able to meet with, , one team member. Not, none of the others, , and that's okay. But I think it's really building the relationship with the seller, for sure, as far as, you know, okay, how honest and trustworthy is a seller? Are they gonna really be honest about their team members?
And, , you know, I, I think just kind of being able to build that relationship first and kind of work some deals around it. , But again, it just depends on the seller. Because some sellers are really honest with their team and they'll say, "Hey, I'm, you know, I'm old. I wanna retire. I'm gonna be selling by the end of the year.
You know, I'm gonna do my best to find a buyer that's gonna keep you around or not." , And then some sellers are really adamant, like, "You have to keep my team members for so many ti - for so long," that kind of thing, so.
Dylan Scroggins: Yeah, I actually, I know a, a former client of mine [00:28:00] visiting another former client of mine, and they're gonna even sit in on their L10 meeting. It's, like, a lot of transparency. And I was like, "Man, I really like that for both parties," you know? And, , I think that's really. It just seems like a wise strategy.
If you're gonna look at the books and the numbers, it's like, if you got one ball and portfolio manager who has a ton of credibility and relationships and they leave or they get unhappy, those numbers can turn red fast if you don't keep on the team. And, you know, that's just, like, life. I mean, who cares?
, The Excel sheet, , ends at a certain point when it's, like, the future starts, and it's, like, if your future's gonna be very much in jeopardy if you don't have those A players, continue to be A players.
Stacey Salyer: Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's really important. So going with that, , it sounds like you help, , I mean, obviously you do a lot of recruiting, , so it sounds like you're pretty proficient in sitting down with, , people who are acquiring and helping them forecast what they may or may not need as well.
Dylan Scroggins: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think [00:29:00] it's a big part of their own, yeah, I mean, forecast, right? It's like, if we buy this business, we know that we're gonna need to level up the talent. We know this person's leaving, this person's a flight risk. So kind of getting those like chess pieces aligned. , And sometimes I'm not needed, right?
We do a lot of, , work on the front end to be like, "All right, let's get this candidate profile very airtight. This is a person we need." But sometimes they might buy the business and the actual, the person that they were worried about for being a flight risk actually does great and they stay. Like they're not all like horror stories, right?
But we were prepared if something did go right, okay? So I think that's a big thing with recruiting is like, once again, it's a very forward thinking game when done well, like most things, right? But what gets people in trouble and why people hate recruiting or hate hiring is that they get on their back foot and they get really reactive.
And then they say, "Oh my gosh, my, you know, director of ops just left. I need to make a new hire." Or let's say, let's say a different title. , my general manager left [00:30:00] and I gotta replace, you know, him or her. O- but I need this person by next week. Well, what do they do? They post on Indeed, they interview five people.
It still takes two weeks longer than they expected. They hire someone they weren't even really excited about. And guess what? That person doesn't work out and then eight months later you're in the same spot. And you're actually in a worse spot because you've lost 10 months of not having a high performer.
What you should have done is take a breath, say, "All right, this GM just left. Maybe I should rethink my whole org chart. Why did they leave? How can I find better talent? What do I want this company to look like two to five years down the road?" And then find a candidate who can do that. And also, I talked to the person this morning, once again, uh, it's kind of a similar role we went back and forth in the title.
It's like, do we find someone who can like do it day one and way more expensive? Or do we do it for someone who might need a little bit more training and onboarding, but man, their ceiling's really high, right? They might be coming out of the industry, et cetera, and they're gonna be cheaper. Like there's a dance [00:31:00] there.
And I, once again, I, I'm biased. Like I'm just in life, I'm all about like paying the expert. , But I do think it's worth people's time to, even if they don't formally use a recruiter, is just show some intentionality, take an afternoon, take an hour by yourself and like really think through, okay, my team right now, are they as the strongest as they can be?
If I were to buy, if I were to sell, it works both ways. And just really do an audit. every month I'm looking at my finances and how much money I'm spending on my business, how often, once again, it's a little different. I'm a, I'm a very small team, but doing even a quarterly audit on your team, just even like relationally and culturally, once a quarter for an hour, like it's worth your time, even if you're not looking to buy or sell.
But that's kind of the big thing that I really try to push clients to, especially in property management, is just continually evaluating their talent as if it's a resource. And not to say like [00:32:00] people are the resource, like people are people and they need to be treated way different than Excel sheet. But I just think a lot of times we're not intentional with the structure than we could be.
Stacey Salyer: Mm, yeah. Yeah, you bring up so many good points. And I think all of us are guilty of not doing that. I think even, you know, myself, I think back in my history and I'm like, "Ooh, there's definitely times where I just was like in it and, uh, just not really thinking enough about that." , And it's hard to grow if you don't have the right people in the right place.
And it's really not comfortable for them either.
Dylan Scroggins: not at all. I mean, I heard a quote once like business will never exceed the capacity of the leader, which is why like the leader needs to always be, you know, whether it's their own personal coach or seminars or broker owner or books or podcast, whatever, the leader needs to continually be like moving up, increasing their capacity so the business can.
But also like your maintenance division's not gonna grow and exceed the capacity of the leader of your maintenance division. Your [00:33:00] leasing and your BDMs and your marketing sales, whatever, if it's not under you as a founder owner, it will not exceed the capacity of the person over that line of business.
And, but the thing is sometimes it does. And you might need to make some really tough choices. This person got us here, they might not get us there. I know that kind of sounds bad, but like that's the reality. And you're actually doing a disservice to them by not talking to them about it, or you're doing a disservice to the business because that person is capping your growth.
Stacey Salyer: Yep. I, yeah, so kinda one of my hot takes, and I've actually, so I listened to Jasmine Starr. She's a, she's online B2B and she's got several different companies, like eight, eight figure businesses that she runs. And, not property management, out- outside of the, the industry, but she talks a lot about how, , really most of the time the team that you start with is not gonna be the team you ever end with.
And that's, that's just the reality of business. And even as a leader, we reach a capping [00:34:00] point. So do you ever meet with other business owner, like business owners or leaders and have a tough conversation and say, you know, I think you really need to maybe look at hiring somebody to take over and run your business?
I, I don't know how that would work, um, that conversation, but I mean, I don't know.
Dylan Scroggins: I, I think, , to an extent. Well, one, I was picking your brain before we hit record about some things that you're doing in your business and, you know, so I'm always trying to get little nuggets from people. , You know, I think there's sometimes I've had like somewhat hard conversations of like just the white knuckle mentality of like, "Hey, like , you're gripping this way too hard."
And, you know, I try to be dealer's choice a lot. Like they know their business more than me. I can't go spend a week on their business and onsite and like evaluate everything. So I have to take some of the feedback with a grain of salt in addition to them taking my feedback with a grain of salt. But I think that's probably the, when it's needed, it's really helpful just to pry their hands off certain [00:35:00] responsibilities and free them up and say, "Hey, look, I'm not cheap.
I'm not free, but trust me, we're gonna make, you're gonna let go of all sales. We're gonna find you a great BDM and just trust me. You're gonna have to train them. Like you're gonna have to like onboard them a bit. Like you're gonna have to do something, but a year from now, we're gonna be good." You know, so there's some tough conversations like that.
But going back to what we said earlier about like the team you start with, not the team you finish with, little side note here, have you watched this, , I'm not a big TV guy, like I just never have been. , But have you ever watched Welcome to Wrexham?
Stacey Salyer: No, I have
not. what I'm talking about? It's okay if you don't.
Dylan Scroggins: All
Stacey Salyer: No, I don't really watch TV either. My kids watch Love Island or something and there's other people that I h - I hear about that, but, you know.
Dylan Scroggins: it's, all right. So I'll make this brief, but I'm going somewhere with this. So Welcome to Wrexham, it's a documentary on Netflix. It's been around for about five years. I found out about it about five weeks ago. The reason that I found out about it is that my wife and I were on like a quick [00:36:00] vacation, much needed, we rarely do it, used to Marriott points.
We're staying at a hotel in Tampa, so she's from Florida. , And I'm in the lobby because my nine month old daughter's not sleeping. So I throw her in the carrier, I go in the elevator, and I kid you not, it's like 4:00 AM. And I'm like, just like walking around the hotel like a crazy person with a baby on me, trying to get her to sleep, which she did.
So about five, six, seven people start trickling in and I see these people wearing these Wrexham jerseys. And I'm like, okay, it's like a fan group. And then I start connecting the dots, like pushing all this equipment around. I'm like, "This is actually the team." And I was like, "That looks familiar." Then I Google it, once again, Stacy, I'm like you.
Like I have no clue like who these people are. It's like one of the most popular sports documentaries in the last five years. It's kind of like the Ted Lasso type thing. Anyway, I talked to them a little bit. I don't really know any of the players or anybody. They give me like a little pin for my kid.
They're really nice, whatever. Don't really think twice about it. I randomly start watching the show. I kid you not, [00:37:00] Stacy, anybody that you work with that buys a business should watch at least a little bit of this because it is a masterclass on how to acquire, run and scale a business. And once again, I'm not a celebrity fanboy.
I don't really follow anything Hollywood, but it's Ryan Reynolds and Rob McEl- McElhenney, these two like, you know, TV and movie star, they buy this team. And I'll start to land the plane here, but I'm obviously excited about it. But like the way European soccer works, you have be like lower levels and you can like win your way up, which is different than obviously like this American league.
You can't go down or up, you're just there. They basically took this team that's like borderline like a Sunday men's team. That's a little bit of exaggeration, but they're at the very, very bottom. And over the last three years, they've just gone up, up, up. It's the first time in English soccer history or English football history that anybody's ever done that.
And how do they do it? And I'm landing the plane here. Once again, masterclass on buying a business. They bought the business, in this case the team. [00:38:00] They placed a lot of great people, the coach, the facilities, whatever, and they just like let them run. And they were still very involved, but every year when they get more and more competition, unfortunately they have to cut certain players and hire new players to kind of the competition, right?
So it's just like this evolution of like a business, of like taking it from really a distressed asset, keeping the culture, but then elevating the brand, hiring experts, bringing on more team, new challenges, whatever. Obviously I get excited about it because I'm like sucked into it now. Awesome. It is so good.
And I'm sure it's not as rosy as it is on TV, but man, it is an absolute masterclass on how to build and scale a business.
Stacey Salyer: I love it. Okay. I, you've sold me. I will
Dylan Scroggins: just accidentally sold myself to watch it again. Yeah.
Stacey Salyer: Yeah. No, I love
Dylan Scroggins: on FX, but I bought it through YouTube and, you know, I only get, I'm like a, just like maybe like just dad [00:39:00] move. I hit the treadmill sometimes at lunch and I've just been chipping away at it at lunch. But man, , I've burned a lot of calories watching some, , Welcome to Wrexham.
Stacey Salyer: Yeah, that sounds really cool. And I love that you were able to, yeah, draw that out, that analogy, and also agree, I guess, to the whole premise of you're usually don't end with the same team that you start with. And that's okay, because there, you know, there is someone
for everyone, right?
Dylan Scroggins: Yeah. Yeah. And, and you don't have to be a soccer fan to enjoy it. , But it's a, it's a really cool documentary. And like I said, like most things, there's metaphors and analogies you can use elsewhere, but masterclass on how to buy a business.
Stacey Salyer: Very cool. Very cool. So, yeah, before we, , close out, I would love to just kinda highlight, , I guess, who, , who you work with. What, what size company should be re - contacting you for recruiting and I, I have my opinion of this, but, like, how far in advance should somebody be recruiting?
Dylan Scroggins: What's your opinion?
Stacey Salyer: I think you should always [00:40:00] be recruiting.
Dylan Scroggins: Oh, let's go.
Stacey Salyer: I know. See? Am I your new favorite person?
Dylan Scroggins: Yeah. Well, you know, I have a, I have a meme that I made up. Like you ever seen Glen, Gary Glen Ross, that like old school sales movie? Have you seen that? I might make all these pop culture references, but it's, gosh, what's his
Stacey Salyer: And I'm, I'm failing. I've, I, I'm,
Dylan Scroggins: No,
Stacey Salyer: I'm good at some popcorn. Yeah. '80s
Dylan Scroggins: ABC. This, this movie's like early '90s maybe.
Gosh, what's the guy's name? I totally forget. Alec Baldwin. And he's standing at the chalkboard and he has ABC, Always Be Closing. It's kind of like classic like Broadway movie, Glen Gary Glen Ross. But anyway, I, I say this in jest, but instead of always be closing, always be Crutin. Just always. Always
be Crutin.
Stacey Salyer: so, that's so Alabama. You sound so Alabama. I love
Dylan Scroggins: a little Alabama in there. You' lucky I didn't talk about Nick Saban, so, um, but yeah, I mean, you're right. In a perfect world, you need to always be recruiting. 'Cause here's the thing, like your W2 employees owe you nothing. Like it's [00:41:00] a business. And I gotta, once again, I got a whole nother TED Talk on never call your company your family.
They're not your
Stacey Salyer: Oh, my goodness. Thank you. I love that we agree on so many hot takes. Holy Toledo. It, I, I'm
like,
Dylan Scroggins: ain't my family.
Stacey Salyer: no, and most families have a lot of weirdness and trauma. So what? You
Dylan Scroggins: point.
Stacey Salyer: you want your business to be weird and traumatic? 40 hours a week for these people? No. Yeah, like, how much. I mean, therapy is pretty much all about your family.
So.
Dylan Scroggins: Yeah, There's a lot of people that make a lot of money talking about people's families. So yeah, I mean, look, it just works both ways, you know? And I've, I know some groups that, man, when someone leaves, they make them feel like they're like literally leaving their family or like, you know, it's just like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Like this is a business. Here's my two week notice. Had a great time. Handshake. I'm doing something else, you know? Um, so I think there is, needs to be a certain undercurrent of paranoia for any founder owner, [00:42:00] especially when they're looking to buy or sell, when people are even, or high performers, I should say, are even needed in a more critical timeframe.
You have to always be checking in with your people. You have to be. I mean, we could do a whole episode on retaining, not just recruiting, but retaining. but when you're always recruiting, it creates this kind of insurance plan where if people were to leave, at least you have a few embers in the flame that you could touch on.
and you, and you avoid the reactive treadmill, right, of just replacing someone ASAP, even if they're not a good fit, and then they're typically not gonna be a good fit again and you're just doing it again and again. So I echo your sentiment of always be crutin-
Stacey Salyer: Obviously, I love it. I love it. Always be recruiting. No, I'm gonna. I, I, yeah, I, I, I'll have to work on my Alabama. You gotta get the Pacific Northwest girl to, like, get some Alabama guess.
Dylan Scroggins: hilarious. Uh, I, uh, yeah, if you need to put subtitles on this or translator of my. I talk fast and I [00:43:00] talk southern, so,
Stacey Salyer: No, you're good. You're good. No, I, I completely understood you the whole time, so you're good., No, I, I love it. We'll have to have you back on and talk about the next, uh, retention. , And, you know, really with the recruiting, so if people are actively buying businesses, of course you should always be recruiting because you're focused on growth.
, But I believe that you should always be recruiting anyway, just because you just never know. I mean, what, what talent is out there. And a lot of times, I don't know what you think about this, but sometimes over-hiring for growth. I don't know how you feel about that.
Dylan Scroggins: Yeah. I mean, it's risky, but , it should be done. And, but I mean, just even if someone were to sell their business, , it's a liquidity event, but it's a lot, maybe a cash inflow into their bank account, but it might be a liquidity event of talent outflow from your company. This is reality. People don't like change.
And they, , and if people like change, they like it a lot more if they know it's coming. and once again, it's like, it goes back to, it kind of goes back to the titles matter. It's [00:44:00] like, not everybody's cut out for business ownership. I'm not cut out for property management business ownership. I'm not.
I mean, I'd probably. Some of these owners make me cry, you know? It's like, , it's a tough business. But what I mean is that, , your W2, , they think like a W2. They want a lot of them. Once again, , you have a fantastic career never being a business owner. I don't care what the TikTok influencers say.
Ma - overwhelmed majority of people do that. They have a fantastic career as a W2. They're looking for comfort, stability, insurance, and a place to go to work every day. And when you bring in new ownership, it scares the crap out of them. And with fear comes poor decisions, and with poor decisions, typically it comes an exit from your company.
So as you're looking to exit, you need to make sure that the people in your team aren't looking to exit, which could affect the transition, et cetera. So there's a lot of, like, analogies and metaphors there, but yeah, I think what you're doing with working with folks buying and selling, , the talent component, it's just such a massive factor that ironically gets incredibly [00:45:00] overlooked.
Stacey Salyer: Yep. Well, good. Well, I love it. Thank you so much for coming on. This was super fun. I love talking about cruitin. Did I say it
Dylan Scroggins: cruitin. perfect.
Stacey Salyer: Good, good. So where can everyone find you? Are you gonna be at any conferences? Is that something you do? Like,
Dylan Scroggins: Yeah. I love conferences. It's tough with, three kids under five, but I have an incredible wife at home. , I'm always a broker owner, , so I'll be there, , next April. Unfortunately, I won't be at the conferences this fall. , Already got some kind of travel booked and personal commitments. But, in regards to finding me, it's thekalmargroup.com, so I'm sure it'll be in the, the show notes, but the K-A-L-M-A-Rgroup.com/PM, , which is my, , specific property management sites.
I've done so much work there. So, yeah, I mean, once again, we love doing BDM searches, marketing manager searches, , director of operations, senior director of operations. We'll, we'll, , we'll change the title of whatever you bring us anyway, so don't get too caught up on the title, but no, it's been really fun.
Property management industry's been really [00:46:00] good for us, and I just think, people have been really resonating with our message of, like, don't rely on job boards. , You know, don't just post, but go out and poach, , is really our mentality and bringing that sales component to recruiting, , and hopefully, , bringing in some great talent, but also doing it with, uh, less time on the owner's hands.
Stacey Salyer: Love it. Awesome. Yeah, I'll make sure all your contact info's in the show notes, and hopefully we'll see you at broker owner next year, 2027. I think it's in Vegas.
Dylan Scroggins: I did hear that. That'd be
Stacey Salyer: yeah. Yeah. So it'll be a good time. I'm, I'll be there. Yeah. We
can talk about cruitin and retention and all the things. So
Dylan Scroggins: yeah, we'll do, we'll do a live show there. We'll do a live show.
Stacey Salyer: Yeah, well, absolutely.
Yeah. Well, I mean, I love to talk, so we can...
Dylan Scroggins: Well, if
Stacey Salyer: I'll try, I travel with my mic.
Dylan Scroggins: I talked about a Netflix documentary for about nine minutes, so, , I love to talk as well, .
Stacey Salyer: That's all, I know, it's all good. That's why we came fast friends. So, All right. Well, thank you for coming on, and thank you everyone for listening today. And be sure and reach out to [00:47:00] Dylan, um, before you need to hire your next hire. And, uh, we'll see you all next time.
Outro: Thanks for listening to the Stacey Salyer show. Here's the deal. You can read about acquisitions anywhere, but you can't learn acquisitions from someone who's done it the way I have as a buyer, a seller, and from the corporate side evaluating hundreds of companies. That's why I need you to subscribe and share this with someone in your network who needs to hear it.
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